Onchain Oracles: Silver ATHs, What's Going On!?

Audio

Transcript

Introductions

[00:02] Bob Summerwill: Okay. Hello, hello. We are live. So welcome to Online Oracles. I am Bob Summerwill. Like to welcome the rest of our guests here. So we have Michael Tan, we have Victor Wong, Kieren James-Lubin and also today making an appearance is Jeff Powell who would you like to please do introduce yourself Jeff.

[00:36] Jeffry Powell: Thanks Bob. I'm Jeff Powell, head of business development at BlockApps. I've been working with people on this video for getting close to five years now. And in recent years I've done a great deal of work on our tokenized metals campaigns. So very excited to be here today to talk about silver.

[01:02] Bob Summerwill: Absolutely.

[01:03] Kieren James-Lubin: Like yeah, it seems, I mean maybe a little bit.

[01:06] Jeffry Powell: And gold.

[01:08] Bob Summerwill: That's it. You bet. You're absolutely perfect for the topic today. So yeah, our topic today is silver all time high. What's going on. But we've also got gold at all time highs having happened after that. Before we get onto those we are going to have a little bit of a demo or conversation from Michael. What have you got for us?

STRATO Spotlight: Easy Savings Demo

[01:32] Victor Wong: Sure.

[01:33] Michael Tan: So I'm going to be demoing the Strato Easy Save bridging process. Right now we have a bridging contest going on where if you bridge in a certain amount, 10% of that goes to a pool that will be distributed to the winner through a lucky draw. Points are generated are calculated through the Strato rewards program. So you know everyone has a chance to win. You got to be in it to win it. This is the current leaderboard on Stratoscan if you want to check it out. But now I'll demo the Easy Save. So once you log in to your account, a lot of money here you go to this deposit function. I mean deposit button. Connect your wallet.

[02:15] Victor Wong: To be clear, Testnet doing this on the testnet but the process on the prod is exactly the same.

[02:22] Bob Summerwill: Yep.

[02:23] Michael Tan: So you can bridge in either USDT or USDC. Let's do USDT for this one we'll do let's say 100. Make sure this is checked so that it goes directly to the lending pool. Pause and earn.

[02:40] Bob Summerwill: Confirm.

[02:42] Victor Wong: Confirm.

[02:46] Michael Tan: Takes a second.

[02:54] Kieren James-Lubin: The bridge is you know that's on the Ethereum slash.

[02:58] Michael Tan: Holesky side bridge did go into auto save and there you have it. One to two minutes it'll be directly in the lending pool and if you want to check it out you can go to advanced lending pool and your funds will be in here. Okay, back over to you, Bob.

[03:17] Bob Summerwill: Very nice. Well thank you Kieren or Victor. Anything you'd like to say about that?

[03:26] Kieren James-Lubin: Yeah, we wanted to have a very convenient way, you know, so some of the users out there in the world just want simple, pretty good yields. You know that better than you typically get from a savings account or all that sort of thing. And not too much thinking. So easy savings, yes. You need, at least for now, to have a crypto native wallet, but from there, it's essentially one click, as you saw to your call it 4% yield, depending on the circumstances. It's different on the testnet than the live net. And yeah, so we're just happy to make it, you know, still DeFi native, but as consumer friendly.

[04:11] Bob Summerwill: There we go.

[04:12] Victor Wong: Thanks, Michael. Take care.

[04:14] Michael Tan: Yep.

47th Street and Precious Metals

[04:16] Bob Summerwill: So, Jeff, tell us about 47th Street. I always keep hearing about 47th Street from you and what's going on there.

[04:27] Jeffry Powell: Well, of course, when we talk about 47th Street, we're talking about 47th Street in Manhattan, which many people know as the diamond district. It's filled with stores buying and selling diamonds and other precious stones. But it's also an epicenter for the buying and selling of precious metals, very specifically gold and silver. And so as BlockApps started tokenizing metals, we established relationships, a variety of relationships, with various dealers and vaulters. But 47th Street became really a prime source for us, really, for learning about the business, because whereas people may not think of it as being a place where there's a lot of value other than stones, there really is a lot of business going on on 47th Street, and there's a lot of vaulting going on on 47th Street. So there's actually, I don't want to estimate, but very large, very large supplies of gold and silver there. So we've developed some very helpful partnerships for us to not only navigate the space, but also to, you know, successfully move into the tokenization business for gold and silver. That's really been an important part of our Strato platform.

[05:53] Bob Summerwill: Well, good to have those connections, that's for sure. So what is happening with the price of precious metals right now?

Why Precious Metals?

[06:02] Jeffry Powell: Well, before we get into that, maybe we could talk a little bit about why we got into precious metals in the first place.

[06:12] Bob Summerwill: Please do.

[06:13] Jeffry Powell: And Kieren, I'm going to flip that to you for a second as.

[06:16] Kieren James-Lubin: Yeah, okay, I would call an anecdote you guys may not know part of, you know, but we'll work back to it. So in 2020, roughly around March, we were sort of like fleeing our office, you know, like a couple people were still coming in into maybe late February. And, you know, I think we got out of the office before formal shutdown orders, but, you know, only maybe a couple weeks before. And then based on the reaction, you know, I got to thinking, like, we're clearly going to print a whole ton of money, like a whole lot. And so I was like, okay, like what should I get into then? So to hedge against the expanding money supply, I got out of everything that had to do with lending. Like, you know, there are some companies that will lend money at pretty high dollar denominator yields. But as we saw, you know, we printed like 40% of the dollars in existence inside a year. You know, got into more crypto. I've always been in crypto, of course, and I bought like a good, you know, I think it was the GLD ETF or IAU or one of those. And that thing just sat there for like two plus years. I was like, you know, like, you know, this thing, I thought it was an inflation hedge. Everything risk on went crazy. You know, Zoom went up like 10x. I did buy a little Zoom at that time in part because I was like, okay, like I think we're not gonna be in offices for a bit. Like, so I guess we're gonna have to be video conferencing more. And I did not buy nearly enough Zoom. That was a, I called it right and it was too small a trade. And the metals did not. The crypto, you know, ETH went from like 80 back to, you know, in the range that we're accustomed to. That was good. And the metals did nothing for like a couple years. So like I think I exited flat. You know, maybe I was like paying for some closing costs on property or something or what have you and I. But it was, you know, I was like, crypto people tend to be at least hard money oriented to a degree. Like crypto is better than precious metals in a lot of ways. But you know, I was like, how could I have been so wrong? And I guess it was just like, oh, it was just five years early plus, you know, and it took the world a while to kind of, you know, get pay attention again. So, so when we, during this period of time we're moving out of our like enterprise phase where we did a lot of big implementations with, you know, Fortune 500, 100 style companies, supply chain focus, etc, and then we were getting interested in the transaction aspect, the supply chains, obviously, you know, value is moving. We're like, well, maybe we need to be more in that flow. And so we, we did, we tokenized many different assets for the corporates and then started tokenizing the assets in a more kind of like NFT style.

[09:22] Michael Tan: Right.

[09:24] Kieren James-Lubin: And so we did a lot with carbon offsets, for instance, because all of the corporates were screaming for them for a time. It's definitely cooled off a little bit. It was kind of a natural flow from our supply chain work. And like we were just kicking around like, okay, what about metals? And we even looked at commodities like nickel, which proved to be kind of complicated. But we ended up finding really a lot of demand for precious metals and some intersection between personalities like, you know, hard money types and the crypto types. There's, you know, good, good solid overlap. And I felt, you know, the metals are sort of the boomer version of crypto. And maybe that's changing. Maybe kids are aware of it now. You know, it's like they're on the perp dexes at this point, various silver futures and so on. So the call was to totally right. And you know, by accident, in a sense, although, you know, I always was inclined positively towards them.

[10:23] Victor Wong: Well, I think there was one other thing that we talked about at the time too, was that it's weird how I think, you know, when we got into crypto, everyone thought of it as, you know, a store of value, a hedge against other world events, but they seem to move more in line with the stock market where metals acted more like a true hedge. So, you know, it provided that opportunity too.

The Costco Effect

[10:50] Jeffry Powell: Yeah, I think both of those are really interesting. And Kieren, since you went back in time a few years, something else that I think that a lot of people don't think about that I really think was a key point in the popularity of metals on an investor basis. Not just institutional, but, you know, a man on the street basis here in the U.S. anyway, was in September of 2023, gold was selling for about 1900 dollars an ounce. Silver was selling for 22, $23 an ounce. And that month Costco started offering gold bars, selling them very low margin, you know, 1 to 2% above spot. But if you were, you know, a Costco VIP member or using, you know, the Costco credit card, you could actually get a discount of that. So you were actually able to practically buy gold bars at spot. And I think that from a business standpoint they had, it was just sort of another loss leader for them, something to get people into the store. But it's estimated that since then, for what's now close to two and a half years, Costco has been selling 100 to 200 million dollars a month of gold bars. And I think that that really opened up people to this idea of this alternative asset. Not that gold was a new thing or anything like that, but I think that domestically that really boosted it.

[12:24] Bob Summerwill: Without having to go off to a bullion dealer, you know, work out how to do that.

[12:30] Jeffry Powell: Exactly. You know, you could go in and, you know, you could buy your groceries and on the way out pick up a gold bar.

[12:37] Bob Summerwill: As you do.

[12:39] Jeffry Powell: As one does in America. As one does.

[12:42] Bob Summerwill: Is that your dollar cost averaging? Yeah. Like add a bit of a bit of silver onto your groceries. I don't know.

[12:49] Kieren James-Lubin: Is there like bullets next to the gold? Some like garlic, you know, for the vampire.

[12:55] Victor Wong: Well, also, also though, if you have the highest level of Costco membership, you also get cash back. So you actually wind up. There's an arb opportunity there. Yeah, there's an arb opportunity there.

[13:09] Jeffry Powell: Kieren will be running to Costco after this.

[13:11] Victor Wong: Exactly.

[13:13] Jeffry Powell: Didn't realize he was missing out on the arb.

[13:16] Victor Wong: Get an SUV, max out his Costco membership, you know, do all of that stuff really living.

What's Driving Metal Prices?

[13:24] Jeffry Powell: But moving forward into, I mean, you know, the last year is when it's really exploded both gold and silver. You know, I was looking at it and you know, a year ago, silver was selling for, you know, like $30, $30 an ounce as opposed to what it was today. Last time I looked, it was $112 an ounce. And gold has basically doubled. But, you know, I know that, I mean, you know, I know that we talk about these things, you know, hedge against inflation, you know, concerns about, you know, the fiscal concerns about minting dollars. The global instability we have seen. But, you know, is that. Kieren, you really think that that's what it is? You think these are the factors that are driving it?

[14:20] Kieren James-Lubin: Well, so, okay, I think maybe the biggest factor probably it's always a coincidence of things when you see a run like this. It's more than one thing at once usually. So the. I believe that we over the last few years scared the world enough that central banks started to deleverage from the dollar. Not completely. I think it's going to still be quite inconvenient. You can't really denominate global trade in gold and silver per se, but as a balance sheet asset, people are selling treasuries in pretty big numbers and buying gold and silver people, I mean central banks. Right, right. And that has to just mathematically provide a lot of the demand. Like you know, you could, I don't know how to do this per se, but you could do a calculation where you could figure out how much demand shift would be needed to cause this price shift. And I think the most plausible is that yeah, big central banks, India, China and so on started dumping on the one side and buying precious metals on the other. And it's, I think it, this cycle really started with the aggressive. I mean, so we've been sanctioning the whole world for a long time. But I think the Russia case in particular really you know, like various and maybe they're not the greatest people on earth, but various oligarchs just having their funds frozen all over the place were like confiscating yachts and you know, and all of that, the SWIFT disconnect and so on. You kind of can't have, you know, something be world money and then start revoking like a nation's access to it.

[16:12] Michael Tan: Right.

[16:13] Kieren James-Lubin: So everyone saw that and looked, you know. And I mean this all continued by the way. I mean of course crypto had been experiencing that sort of treatment for some time, which is why we don't, plenty of us don't trust the dollar, you know, altogether. And so the just the new administration, you know, has a fairly bare knuckled statement and negotiating style. I think there are long run effects of the tariff liberation day in which tariffs are capital control pretty much.

[16:51] Jeffry Powell: Right.

[16:51] Kieren James-Lubin: It's a fee, more than 100% fee in effect. But there seems to be a realigning world order going on that just doesn't trust the dollar the way it used to and or maybe explicitly wants enough of it is strong enough. It's getting multipolar basically. So I think those are the things that could move the price pretty big. I've also heard some of the large banks are in market buying up. Some of them you can look up are bigger in metals than others. So you know, they may be hedging against this trend, but that has to be sort of the big factor. I would think there are other ones, right. Like so silver probably is higher beta than gold. It's definitely more volatile and so you'd expect slightly different behavior between gold and silver. But you know, I wanted to touch on the Bitcoin ETH analogy or you know, I sort of, I like to say, tongue in cheek that like, yes, Bitcoin's like gold, you know, it just kind of sits there. Whereas like silver, you're using it, you got semiconductor applications and solar and this and that. You're actually using it for something and somehow the gold is worth way more, you know, kind of funny on some level.

[18:12] Jeffry Powell: Yeah.

[18:14] Kieren James-Lubin: And that's part of it. Like the price of silver is so high that, and it's. I, you know, I have heard at least that there are cases where it's hard to substitute industrially and so it's actually going to mess with commerce, you know, like one. Yeah. And one good thing about commodities is that when the price is really high, you tend to like go mine more of them or go get more of them somehow. So I don't think we're going to see silver just up for a while. You know, you'll start to see mining action happen and the price will correct a little bit and the miners will make the profits kind of on the way down.

[18:52] Bob Summerwill: But yeah, I understand that mining takes a while to turn around though.

[18:56] Kieren James-Lubin: Takes a while. I mean, although the price should correct pretty quickly once the capital's there and because it's not pricing, just current supply and it's expected future supply. But yeah, it'll take some time for that to get running.

[19:12] Jeffry Powell: So that's all very interesting. I just want to go back to something you were saying. So you're talking about institutions. Institutions started regarding treasuries as I guess less of a safe haven for the reasons that you mentioned. And so the way you say it is that then gold or precious metals filled that gap. Right?

[19:33] Kieren James-Lubin: Yeah. If you want sovereign savings and you can deal with the, you know, that in inflationary times, you know, the commodities do really well, like they did really well, I believe the 70s and so on, or at least on the later side. And also. Yeah, I mean, you know, you can have control of it. Maybe you can mine it within your own borders. Sometimes it's a better hedge in an environment where the dollar is not acting like a somewhat fungible bearer asset.

[20:09] Jeffry Powell: Okay, and another quick question, just actually talking about the dollar. So I think that, you know, for us or some of us on this call certainly, you know, a feeling of a lack of confidence in the dollar. But is that what it is in terms of the central banks? Is it a lack of confidence in the dollar or is it just diversification?

[20:30] Kieren James-Lubin: I guess you would say, like, why now and why so big? I think because they could have diversified at any time. I think it is a, there's also like a sober evaluation that we must continue to print the dollar that's maybe less clear. Like, I think our thinking Federal spending is up 30, 40% from 2020. And like we were spending a lot of money in 2020, you know, like at a certain point you're gonna both have to borrow. That's getting harder because, you know, people expect inflation to be higher, so you'd have to charge more interest on the debt, but we can't because it's so huge. Or you're going to tax more or you're going to print. Those are your choices and some mix of all of them will be deployed. But yeah, I think it is a, the dollar, you could borrow it really cheaply because people needed it for everything one way or another. Like in a sense, like the US exports dollars and gets goods and services back somehow. You know, it took a long time to understand this. Like people will just like give us tractors and whatever for paper, you know, but it's changing.

[21:58] Victor Wong: It's not over.

[22:00] Kieren James-Lubin: Still, I think most trade for convenience. Like, so the medium exchange value of the dollar will probably not go away. But the savings value, yes, it's better than the Argentinian peso, say, but if you can manage to hold the gold and silver or any number of other things, probably it's a good idea. And also I think some nations do want to kneecap the US a little bit.

China and Strategic Assets

[22:26] Victor Wong: I think there is an element of that in terms of the industrial use case that you were talking about. Right. So the big use cases for silver are solar panels and EVs, which is obviously dominated by China. Right. Like China has 80% of the world's solar panel production. Right. They have, you know, BYD is the largest car manufacturer in the world and they mainly do EVs. So I think one of the effects of the trade war, if you will, is that China actively, Chinese companies are actively searching new markets. For example, you can see the number of BYD cars in Mexico, for example, or European countries have increased dramatically. So I think, and then in, and like, I think I noticed that, you know, on the Shanghai exchange, silver hit all time highs, you know, even in December. So you can see the shift about like silver kind of like rare earth is becoming a strategic asset in the mind of like Chinese government officials. Right. And they even implemented export controls that went into effect in January so you can't freely export from China now to be honest, that's less of a worry because China is only the fourth largest producer of silver. They actually are a net importer of silver because of all these manufacturing things. But it's signaling that they consider this a strategic asset. And it wouldn't surprise me, not that I have any insider information in this, but that they would be stockpiling silver in the same way they stockpiled Nvidia chips ahead of bans coming up. Right. So like they, you know, they tend to have long range planning in terms of these assets. So I think that's part of the factor that could be driving up the price as well.

[24:22] Bob Summerwill: Yeah, I think that's that is an interesting change.

[24:26] Kieren James-Lubin: Minister of the Chinese Strategic Silver Reserve.

[24:29] Bob Summerwill: He hasn't got any insider knowledge.

[24:31] Jeffry Powell: No, no inside info.

[24:32] Victor Wong: Just no inside info like my, Yes, I have no inside info on this. But it's just the way they've behaved it like you know, when they think of something as strategic, whether it's AI chips or you know, some mineral or some resource, they start to stockpile it and they do it gradually so the world doesn't really notice until it really notices. And like. Yeah, and I would suspect something like that is happening as well.

[25:02] Bob Summerwill: Because I mean thinking, thinking back to my own earlier experience, I can't remember if I've spoken on any of our spaces about this or just you guys personally. It says so I was aware of Bitcoin for a few years before I had any interest. And the reason I wasn't interested is because I was a gold bug and a silver bug and a software engineer. It's like I know how terrible software is. So some dudes like made this magic internet money come on and I was actually doing very, very well on Silver through 2009, 2010 and 11 until I leveraged myself up the wazoo on the previous big spike like this and then down we came and you know, find myself in debt for a long time. So don't use leverage kids really when things are going.

[26:00] Victor Wong: By the way, our legal has reminded me, I should say none of what we're saying it should be considered investment advice, you know, with that caveat out there, especially.

[26:10] Bob Summerwill: Not with leverage on volatile assets. Yeah, but a lot of the stories around that time, you know, not a lot of the narratives is the same sort of stuff. We've already spoken about caveat. This industrial use stuff is really like ramped up a lot more over that, over that 10 to 15 year period?

[26:29] Victor Wong: Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, alone, like, honestly, Canada just announced that they're going to be importing China EVs and I'm eager to get my hands on one of these because my friends in China have been like, mocking me shamelessly with pictures of their like, cheap, beautiful Chinese EV. So I'm looking forward to that. But I think to extend your analogy on the ETH Bitcoin analogy with gold, silver, I do think there's some rebalancing going on. Like those assets tend to stay in sort of fixed value to each other and gold had a huge ramp up over the summer and you know, there was a lagging kind of ramp up of silver too. And now that gold is hitting highs again, you know, I think you're gonna continue to see sort of rebalancing. So for example, like, typically the ratio of gold to silver value is like 84, 85 to 1. And then in the summer it hit, you know, 90 to 1. And like, I think you're going to see some rebalancing across a bunch of portfolios as well.

Tokenized Metals and Liquidity

[27:38] Jeffry Powell: Yeah, I think that people in the silver business very much feel that way. And Bob, going back to 47th Street, even at the end of 2025 when silver hit the incredible price of $70 an ounce, people were saying to me, oh, it's overpriced, it's overpriced. It's just a matter of when it's going to come down. And those people still feel the same way, even though it's done nothing but go up since then.

[28:07] Victor Wong: Well, one thing, Jeff, and you know, I know you work with the suppliers very closely, is that oddly, you know, the things we talked about, like Costco's own gold and silver and stuff has increased a buy side, but it's actually not easy to exit at a good price. I know you had some experience with this, right? So like, it's kind of interesting, I think.

[28:27] Jeffry Powell: Yeah, it is interesting. And actually it's based upon some conversations that I've had this week. And so not to name names, but you know, keeping in touch with some of the big companies that buy and sell a lot of gold and silver. And you know, right now, I mean, they are so overwhelmed in particular with people selling that, you know, if you want to sell to, you know, online to one of these big outfits, whereas the minimums used to be you know, $500 or so. The minimums have now increased to 10,000 or $20,000 if you are selling silver. And the time to get those deals done where it used to be, one company in particular, it used to be, you know, if you want, you can do it online or you can talk to us, you know, we'll help you ship it, you send it to us, we'll verify it, we'll pay you the next day. Now they're saying things like well, might take us a week to get it and we'll pay you within, we'll do our best to pay you within eight to 10 days. And the rates that they might.

[29:28] Kieren James-Lubin: Be short though, like it could be.

[29:32] Jeffry Powell: I mean they're short on everything including the willingness to pay anywhere close to spot price for things.

[29:39] Victor Wong: But this shows you why tokenized silver is clearly better, right? Because you know, our tokenized silver is going close to spot like.

[29:48] Jeffry Powell: And also, you know, I mean I know we're all crypto people, but also, you know, one of the things that I really like about it is you know that the tokenized metals are, you know, it's like you know, a settlement instrument. The way that crypto is, you know, it's, you.

[30:05] Kieren James-Lubin: Know, it's instant on this point. I don't know if someone posted it internally for us or if I just saw it on X but, or maybe it was a repost. Paolo CEO of Tether said something like, yeah, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if a government issues a gold backed stablecoin, you know, a gold, tokenized gold, you know, instrument to compete with the dollar sometime soon. And bear in mind Tether is sitting on billions of dollars of balance sheet gold that it tokenizes a whole bunch of. So maybe they know something we don't.

[30:45] Victor Wong: But yeah, they're trying to bring back the gold standard. Right? Like to be bringing it.

[30:50] Jeffry Powell: There we go.

[30:52] Kieren James-Lubin: Yes.

[30:54] Bob Summerwill: Make Ron Paul happy.

Closing Thoughts

[30:55] Victor Wong: Yeah, exactly. Well, I think we're at time. Does anyone have any closing thoughts?

[31:04] Kieren James-Lubin: Yeah, I mean I think like as a crypto person, but on the practical side I would say we love all the assets, you know and you probably, I mean they seem to be a little bit anti correlated just as stocks and crypto are. So you're probably better off having both, you know, tokenized metals in crypto versus just one or the other.

[31:29] Victor Wong: Not investment advice.

[31:31] Kieren James-Lubin: Investment advice. And yeah, we, you know, wild times. I'm. It's a little bittersweet like we've done. We have a little bit of corporate gold and silver. Like we're happy. But it's also like these prices are saying something bad about the world maybe, which is, you know, change is always painful, I guess.

[31:52] Victor Wong: I think it's sort of a bet that the world is going to be a little bit unstable going forward. Which, you know, it's not.

[32:02] Bob Summerwill: That's not, it's not a hard bet.

[32:06] Victor Wong: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not a difficult bet to make.

[32:10] Bob Summerwill: No. So I'll just quickly mention the other thing and then we're good. So yeah, tomorrow I'm doing a spaces with ETHDenver to talk about a collaboration that I have been doing between myself and Jessica Angel, who is the creative director there, which is an exhibit called the Museum of Ethereum. So we're doing spaces about this tomorrow. But a little preview is at ETHDenver. There will be an area when you first come into the main venue, sort of a futurescape build out. One of the things in there will be the Museum of Ethereum. So this is really happening because it's the first Denver after 10 years of Ethereum. So there's going to be a mixture of physical and digital artifacts there, a lot of that like leaning on the work that we've had with Early Days of Ethereum and the interviews here. But also I'm doing some stuff with physical computers which will be quite interesting. So I'm calling that the Ethereum Time Machine. So if you tune into the spaces tomorrow, you'll hear a little bit more about that or if you come into Denver, you will see the Museum of Ethereum. So that's something that Strato supporting.

[33:46] Victor Wong: So Kieren, when you started the Early Days of Ethereum series, did you ever think it would be made physical in some form?

[33:53] Kieren James-Lubin: No, but yeah, I mean it should. It merits a museum. Right? You know, we need to preserve all the artifacts, you know, cast them in metals, no doubt.

[34:04] Victor Wong: We need bronze statues of Vitalik somewhere.

[34:10] Bob Summerwill: And something which has actually been very helpful on that is the rise of AI is when I started doing my researchy stuff back in 2017, it was so slow and manual trying to find details and emailing people and so on. And now, you know, any of the major LLMs are absolutely great at digging things out. So we are recovering it's archaeological work. Of recovering things, which is only a few years ago, but it's kind of like 10 years ago is like forever, right?

[34:43] Victor Wong: In the crypto world, it's like a light. It's several lifetimes ago, at least. Like, I think we're like, order of magnitude above dog years, basically, in the crypto world.

[34:53] Bob Summerwill: Absolutely.

[34:55] Victor Wong: Okay, thank you, everyone. Take care.

[34:57] Kieren James-Lubin: Have a good one.

[34:58] Jeffry Powell: Bye.

[34:58] Kieren James-Lubin: Bye.

[34:58] Bob Summerwill: Bye.